Talking to Olivia Colman (Norwich, 1974) and Benedict Cumberbatch (London, 1976) is complicated. It's not that they are reluctant to do so, it's just disorienting how enthusiastically they take turns giving each other the floor, only to then enthusiastically agree with each other. They argue, but it's not noticeable. One would say that in real life (meaning what is seen on Zoom), they bring to life exactly the opposite of what is seen in the other life, the one on the screen (much more real, if possible).
Both star together, as if they were the same person in a fierce battle between themselves and against themselves, in The Rose, the recently released film by Jay Roach that revisits the novel by Warren Adler. In other words, the film in question returns to the same canonical text that served as the basis for the already classic adaptation by Danny De Vito in 1989 with Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas. Suddenly, the same doubts about something as fundamental and close at hand as marriage arise.
The Rose: No chemistry, no paradise... or hell (***)
"It must be made clear that women sweat and can be rude, brilliant, disappointing, fantastic, or strong..."
Q. After making this film, do you think marriage still has any chance?
Benedict. Honestly, I don't know if there are alternatives or if marriage is the only option. Perhaps we should admit that marriage is not for everyone. That's important. We are very different, and what works for some may be a nightmare for others. Looking at the Roses, the important thing to remember is how not to do it, that is, how not to turn marriage into a bad option. It's not about rejecting it outright, but about entering into it fully aware that accepting a long-term relationship, whether through marriage or otherwise, is inevitably very difficult. Life presents challenges, changes shape, and one must adapt. And I don't think that's an excuse not to try. Yes, it's a bit disappointing.
Olivia. I was going to say exactly the same. Yes, I agree.
The film, to put it in context, focuses not only on life as a couple but also on happiness itself, which necessarily involves supporting each other, understanding each other, or at the very least, listening to each other. The novelty compared to the previous version is that the source of conflicts, so to speak, changes gender. If Turner and Douglas followed the patriarchal pattern of a successful man and a obedient woman, and to a certain extent submissive (until she stops being so, of course), now - new times require it - the one who stands out and thrives professionally is her while he takes care of the family. And so on until everything blows up in the same way.
In a way, and despite everything, it seems that we are at the same point. It's not like we have advanced that much. "For a long time, the balance and happiness of a couple have depended on everything a woman has been willing to sacrifice. That's over. It's no longer like that and it can't be like that," says Colman, firmly. Cumberbatch takes the floor: "But that's in the movie! My character is his wife's biggest fan and fights for her success. Indeed, as Olivia says, things have changed and a movie that doesn't reflect that wouldn't even be accepted." It's clear.
Q. But, despite everything, don't you think it's still harder for a man to accept or simply deal with failure than for a woman?
Benedict. In general, regardless of gender, humans need a certain validation to have the courage to overcome their fears and feel valued. We live in a society where ambition is somewhat stigmatized and, in truth, it is necessary... But, even though we are far from equality, things are becoming more balanced.
Olivia. The pressure to succeed has historically been on the side of men... Now it's not like that. But it's important not to be afraid of failure. As an artist, you can't become good unless you fail. You have to make mistakes to break barriers and improve.
Benedict. Indeed, our work largely consists of experimenting and taking risks. That's the only way you grow. And you can't achieve that if you are consumed by the fear of failure. Of course, you choose who you work with and try to make sure they are nice people so that you don't feel bad for making a couple of mistakes in order to improve on the third or fourth try.
Q. You talk about failure, but your careers are marked by success. How do you handle the flood of compliments when they come?
Benedict. Carefully. I go back to what I said before, without failure, it's impossible to feel the sweetness of success. When you succeed, you know that before the next real achievement, there are several stumbles along the way.
Olivia. Success without any failure is fruitless. And non-existent. Once again, failure is important to cultivate humility.
Q. All your reflections seem too abstract to me. Could you give a specific example?
Olivia. I remember my early days auditioning. I thought, "Maybe I'm putting too much hope into this." One after another, I didn't get anything. My mother would tell me it didn't matter, and all I wanted was a hug. But the best part is that my mother was right. When I finally got what I wanted, I realized that it didn't matter at all.
Benedict. I just realized listening to you that we have something in common that I didn't know. Both of us struggled a lot to relax and learn to be who we truly are. I think we both tried too hard at the beginning of our careers. I've learned that there is no such thing as a career. It's simply about getting a job. Right now, I'm in a situation where every job feels like a success.
Q. Returning to the film, it's no spoiler to say that things don't end well. And despite all that has been said, much of the blame lies with what has been called patriarchy, a patriarchy that refuses to disappear as long as we look at surveys among young people. Is there a remedy or are we doomed to it?
Olivia. Everything takes time. Reversing a situation that has lasted so long cannot happen overnight. I understand that some young people feel lost. But we must insist on something as basic as being kind. That's not weakness but quite the opposite. A strong man is a caring and understanding man.
Benedict. The problem is that we live surrounded by cameras and screens, and everything becomes toxic very quickly. But if you look at it from a distance, we are not experiencing anything that we didn't already experience in the 30s or 40s. We are not that special. As soon as there is a crisis, the first thing done is to look for scapegoats... As Olivia says, we must reinforce the idea that we are all different and, at the same time, equal.
And having said that, one and the other, the other and one, agree with each other. Nothing like the Roses.